May 4, 2020

FWIW: here’s where I think we stand: almost nobody has heard much about the details but know an accusation was made which team trump will use as a false equivalency no matter what — key development was Trump’s approach in commenting on it. But Biden and Dems (I hope) know that this election is not going to be won just on moral grounds — they need to keep the upper hand there but it’s not going to be the end all be all, it’s going to be selling people on the idea that Biden/Dems will make their lives better than this cluaterfuck

Now for those digging into the details of this for any number of reasons to either exculpate or indict Biden:
The story has now changed several times and those who were on the war path to get Biden replaced or something have had to quiet down a bit. So the fallback position is “thorough investigation”...which for all intents and purposes Biden has been suggesting should happen already because he empathically says this never happened

 

May 4, 2020

he isn't. lol

 

May 4, 2020

like you, i believe that a small group of unhinged, 50-follower twitter accounts, cherry-picked to serve my own rhetorical purposes, represent an entire faction of the party

 

May 4, 2020

youve lost a step lol

 

May 4, 2020

hmm idk i see people going "eek a sexual assault allegation, might be a stumbling block" and you lashing out about "BERNIE BROS," are u one step away from telling me i've been sent by the kremlin?

 

May 4, 2020

in all seriousness i do think you should acknowledge that this...

...is not really representative of how you feel, as you've told me many times you think ppl voting for sanders are rich elitist morons or w/e, and have dismissed most "good faith arguments against biden on policy" as whining from said group. it's ok! let the hate flow through you.

 

May 4, 2020

I’m not “lashing out”. Your refusal to acknowledge “bernie bros” are even a thing is v telling.

And “hmm a sexual allegation could be a stumbling block” is not an accurate tone or description for what’s going on. It’s not dispassionate. Washington Post think pieces are already out calling for him to step aside ffs. It’s totally cynically manufactured and trumped up - where am I wrong?

OK, again - a total distortion. Is this rly how you see the world, or just our gchat conversations? Or are you being purposefully obtuse for the sake of your argument? It’s possible to see the self righteous preening from mostly white, trust fund kids pretending to slum as whining, or frivolous, while also think that disagreeing on m4a is an entirely diff planet from “Biden is a corrupt r--ist who has a ~~cult~~ following but also lacks enthusiasm”

This isn’t an oral history of “93 to infinity” wpg lol you’re on my turf. I can smell your fear.

 

May 4, 2020

again: telling that you think these are the two camps of democrats who disagree w you! it's either ppl calling him a r--ist or it's "righteous preening from mostly white, trust fund kids pretending to slum."

i didn't vote for biden in the primary and since i live in a state where it doesn't matter, i have the luxury of not voting for him in november. (i would if i lived almost anywhere else.) but i can sit here and tell you i accept there are reasons that tens of millions of americans –– many of them in much more dire straits than you or i! –– voted for joe biden over bernie sanders in the primary. some reasons are the product of biden's work over his political career, some are failures of the sanders campaign, some are external factors.

i think you're a much smarter and more reasonable person than to cast all those who voted for the other guy as preening trust fund kids –– you know that's not the case, you know there are, on the other side, tens of millions of americans with real material concerns that are not addressed by biden or his campaign or who find him morally unacceptable for a variety of legitimate reasons. the biden campaign needs a better response to "i'm not comfortable voting for someone who voted to go to war with iraq" than "that was years ago you yuppie scum."

 

May 4, 2020

ill wait for you to finish editing your post before i weigh in

 

May 4, 2020

was just adding a quote!

 

May 4, 2020

How so? In what way is it telling? Who on the left is trumpeting Reade... are they white entitled progressive activists or aren't they?

Yes. I don't generalize and am reasonable and smart. I do think the 'movement' was overstated and that's at least partially do to the loud megaphone that is twitter. Am I wrong? Voters weighed in and choose Biden.

classic example of overstating. what percentage of these voters would honestly sit this out and risk trump winning another term? is it possible that small(ish) segment of bernies base are a. "bros" b. entitled brats who TBH can afford another trump term ("morally unacceptable" is a truly privileged term i would argue and precisely my point. you didn't say 'politically' unacceptable. its some high falutent bs about morals, in the era of trump.)

perhaps but what could biden say that would persuade you? i suspect nothing so at a point he has to change his sights. (i know the iraq war vote is a big deal or w/e, but also ffs Bernie being so pure is just tireddddd. move on!) its like, your side (tm) views Elizabeth Warren as a sellout ffs. Why should we pretend the primary isn't over? which leads me to my real gripe -----

And again, lets not lose the thread: do you believe tara reade? do you think voices on the left are trumpeting her to pressure primary leaders to force out biden? how come the dnc conspiracy was a fine argument when it favored bernie, but now its beyond the pale to suggest the same (mostly online) histrionic voices are weaponizing the #MeToo movement?

 

May 4, 2020

its the people who support him who are just very very dumb.

Lots of those are in the US.

 

May 4, 2020

i'm saying it's telling that you're claiming the only two groups of democratic or progressive voters who have different policy goals than you are ppl calling biden a r--ist or whining trust fund kids. that's clearly not the case! you have plenty of ground to stand on without creating a funhouse version of reality.

this is you (willfully????? hmmmmmmmmmmmMMmmmmMMMMMM) misunderstanding me: i'm not saying tens of millions of dem primary voters will sit out in november, i'm just referring to ppl who voted against biden in the primary. i'm accepting of the fact lots of americans found reason to vote for biden, and he won –– why are you so bent on casting those who voted against him in such caricatured terms? look at biden v. sanders (this is just an example, we could swap in house reps with national profiles, etc) in younger brackets of voters, then younger brackets of non-white voters, etc. the future of the party is leaning one way and i'm not sure what any of us gain by falsely claiming this is just something happening in williamsburg.

this is of course totally speculative but i sincerely believe that if you put everyone on a fool-proof lie detector test, you would find a higher percentage of elected democrats who would prefer a trump presidency to a sanders presidency, than the percentage of sanders primary voters who would prefer a trump presidency to a biden presidency.

and to be clear i'm not really talking about tara reade here; what about people who don't want to vote for biden because they view his work in the senate as what got their family members incarcerated in america, or killed in the middle east, or etc? a lot of voters move on gut feeling, and i actually think you and i might be splitting hairs on political/moral in this context.

i think it's fair for me to be skeptical of biden no matter what he says, given that we have decades of his professional political record to go on! why would i find him trustworthy now?

we are in danger of disappearing down a rabbit hole here but i would like to turn this around on you: why do you scoff at the suggestion (obviously true and verified in 2016) that the dnc was actively working against sanders, yet have no trouble believing there are these sinister, coordinated forces attacking biden?

and then, on the second half of this sentence: i'm not really sure what you're asking. do i think allegations of sexual misconduct have been cynically deployed in recent years, especially in politics? yes, of course. what are you arguing?

 

May 4, 2020

Well no, you inferred that. But anyway, how is it not the case? Are the sorts of critics right now on the far left/Bernie supporters or aren't there? I'm not making a rhetorical leap in saying this.

I believe you said tens of millions of Americans view Biden as "morally unacceptable"- you have no way to prove that! Again you overstate the 'movement'

how about in mississippi? youth vote there went for biden. guess bc those voters are largely black, mostly not affluent they dont count right? But did Bernie have the support of young people in a lot of affluent places, sure. ofc. Howard Dean was the favored candidate of young voters, drew huge crowds of college students, didn't translate to 2008. you can parse this stuff a few diff ways and priorities/movements chage. you could be right but thats not rly my point here.... and whats that got to do with beating trump in 2020? "funhouse version of reality" indeed - bernie's whole strategy as predicated on a historic primary wave of teenagers voting.

the echo chamber exists in williamsburg though. and the west coast. you're conflating my points, likely on purpose.

Because you found him trustworthy for a decade and have only recently had a change of heart? Which Paul should we believe? The one who supported Obama/Biden for years and years, when you were honest and pure of heart, or the entrenched you now, making his nut off the exact bubble that's vehemently, pathologically anti-Biden. You're compromised sir!

And ffs, you proved my point. You're (unfairly) skeptical of him - suddenly - so there's no point in him trying to win your faction over lol.

Classic rhetorical turnaround! Gee, guess you can't answer! What a surprise -- dodgeeeeee. I'm asking why you're so willing to believe a vastttttt implausible shhhhhadowy conspiracy existed against Bernie, but it's not possible that Dem activists are choosing to quote believe women bc they see it as leverage to drive him from the nomination? again - do you believe tara reade? and do you think voices on the left are trumpeting her in part to pressure primary leaders to force out biden? which is it? who on the left is trumpeting Reade... are they white entitled progressive activists or aren't they?

 

May 4, 2020

you are absolutely making a giant, laughable leap saying that everyone to the left of joe biden has a trust fund, yes

lol come onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn how are you gonna whine about your opponents arguing in bad faith then come with this? "bernie sanders voters disproportionately affluent" does not track with reality!

not sure what this means! there are obviously states that have more well-off people than others, but there are low-income voters everywhere.

says who?

i voted for obama in 2012

...what?

tell me what's unfair about it

umm, observable reality, go on

uhh... what? which "dem activists"? democrats are lining up in droves to stand behind and defend biden –– which is their right!

sure!

not from what i've seen, no

i actually don't care that much about the reade accusation in the scheme of things. it might be true, it might not be –– i don't really have any reason to doubt her, but i certainly understand why someone would vote for biden in spite of it. but i do think it's hugely embarrassing that certain (*clears throat*) white, wealthy, politics types have decided this was a massive, russian-/sanders-/trump-backed conspiracy and not just someone making a reasonable allegation.

 

May 4, 2020

not what i said

again, no. you said bernie won youth vote, especially young nonwhite voters. i brought up an example where this wasnt a case and wondered why you discount it? dodge

willfully obtuse

me b---- i have receipts. dont play this game

and supported them throughout both their terms. pls.

its either unfair, or rigidly smug. you can afford to make the perfect enemy of the good. you once understood that negotiation and compromise were valuable tools to advance progress -and in fact, even in this political climate, its how stuff frequently gets accomplished once it leaves the abstract -before you broke bad.

convincing!

why do you play this glib game is it a way to deflect from me lol.. or are you that insulated? ive already referenced a number of activist-journalists in this thread but:

https://www.motherjones.com/politic...ra-reades-sexual-assault-allegation-now-what/

how so...semantics?

lol why is it so outlandish less than 6 months from a presidential election? and given what shes said about putin? and given whats been learned about her.. shes clearly mentally unwell which as ive already said is why the hoopla has already started to tamper. like **all this** is "hugely embarrassing" but it wasnt when left twitter and the bernie camp were giving trump his playbook in '16?

you can cont to play cute rhetorical games when its convenient, then shift into your "morally unacceptable" tone as u see fit!!! i see u!!!!

 

May 4, 2020

i would say i've been completely consistent! i think joe biden is a poor candidate and i don't trust him as president, but understand why people have voted for him and will do so again, and i'm not advocating they stay home –– just expressing concern, six months out, that this guy is going to blow an eminently winnable election!

 

May 4, 2020

Consistently inaccurate