May 2, 2017 it does and it doesn't imo because rly, what is being lost out on in these so called discussions on s80 lol 99% of discussions here r ppl circlejerking each other, or trolling, or getting pissy because someone didn't fall in line with their circlejerk
May 2, 2017 CHeck out the banner right now OP ha...definitely in the last days lol Thought Thug woulda been dropped or overdosed years ago
May 2, 2017 ofc someone could see it as bs, doesnt make a valid argument hold any less weight. if its reasonable, rational, backed - its a strong argument. something thats backed & almost impossible to deny is gonna become the marker. example is Goodfellas is one of the best mafia movies ever made. someone could say thats bs but can they disprove it? if no one can, argument'll still hold weight. if a lot of people agree with the argument (because of its strength not because of aligned tastes) it'll become the value marker by consensus. stopping at "its all subjective" kills any discussion, any insight, any chance to make interpretations or thoughts
May 2, 2017 problem is this is still based off of personal tastes. it absolutely comes down to individual thoughts on the matter dictating to each person what or what doesn't qualify as valid if someone puts forth a point that they think is "reasonable, rational, backed" in their mind, it's ultimately irrelevant if other people don't see it as such because of their own views on it. but the perceived "strengths" are based on what those people do or don't have taste for in the mind of people who agree on it's quality, and literally no one else all this means is the opinion is the more popular one, the more popular taste among the population of people watching mafia movies or whatever else it is. that doesn't make certain opinions on it's quality "valid" i can't agree that it kills any and all discussion etc. sure, it kills some, but like i said above, what kind are we really losing for the most part? most discussion here literally is just a group full of people saying the same thing and/or getting mad at dissenting opinions, which results in trolling, drawn out arguments, ultimately concluding with nothing being changed, if it even gets that far and i think if anything, coming to the understanding that it's all subjective simply changes how people would discuss things, and removes a ton of the excessive and unnecessary negativity, and knocks a s--- ton of elitist people back down to reality, which is a great thing
May 2, 2017 if its valid by definition, it qualifies as valid. ofc there's superiority complex nerds out there that are like that. but you cant speak for everyone. you can easily sway people with arguments especially if the person has solid backing. of course but when many agree & no one can give an actual solid reason as to why they disagree or disprove the argument (ofc theres subjectivity to that too but when you point out an error people are gonna see it), the argument that is holding weight is gonna become the marker. didn't say thats what makes it valid, said that's what makes it the value marker by consensus. a lot of that goes on but theres a lot of thoughtful discussion too. understanding that its subjective does do all of that. but people still wanna put out their interpretation on stuff, its a chance to dig into a work & put your thoughts out. nothing wrong with analytical thinking
May 2, 2017 this is essentially saying if it's valid because it's valid, which doesn't work lol that some mighty circular logic you've missed the point of this part of my post tho, which is that what someone could consider solid backing (say, the person putting forth the argument), and what another (let's say the person who disagrees with their opinion in the first place) thinks is a solid argument and looooooool. very very few times have i ever seen someone sway someone elses musical opinion, let alone on here again, the whole what someone considers solid vs what someone else does and all the "marker" essentially is at that point is just popularity of opinion, which means nothing beyond what is more popular. which when not applied to someone/something that said person likes, it suddenly becomes invalid lol. case in point, take Eminem. extremely popular, even today. considered by millions to be the rap god lmfao. undeniably more popular overall than pretty much any other rap artist out. does that mean he's the marker for quality then? that would definitely raise objections from a s--- load of people around here where and nothing about understanding it's subjective nature prevents people from doing so
May 2, 2017 Real music hater...signs of the times again...This guy had gumby as his avi and says Young Thug is the greatest rapper of all time
May 2, 2017 you say it dictated by what qualifies or doesnt qualify as valid. people have different views on what they think qualifies or doesn't qualify. what determines that is if said thing is valid by definition. if it fits the definition then it qualfies. full stop. no circle being made. your point was that if someone has what they think is a solid argument, opinions that aren't theirs are irrelevant. thats not the case for a lot of people. were not all close minded nerds that dont tolerate outside opinions everything has some sort of subjectivity to it but you know its solid if it's undeniable. basic intuition. the marker is set by the consensus/popularity. what makes it the marker is the strength. never argued that popularity = quality no. see above ...fair enough you got me there
May 2, 2017 i'm the one that said people have different views on what does or doesn't qualify, essentially saying that sometimes it's literally not possible for one person to understand or accept another persons opinion about music because their taste doesn't allow them, so for example they can't understand why person would present x as an argument for why z is good, when to them, x is awful etc. and is therefore not a valid argument, and this goes into the next part of this about "definition" unless you're literally describing what sounds are being used or whatever, there's not much definition to get into lol. it's coming down i'd say 100% of the time to what people feel about something, which is entirely subjective does it sound good to u does it do something for u do u like the rappers voice do u like their singing is the instrumental holding your attention is the content enjoyable for u etc. etc. all personal s--- none of which is universal none of these apply as a definition of something bad or good, so there's no "valid" argument from anything in that list no and i honestly don't know how i could put this any clearer what one person thinks is a solid argument is not necessarily a solid argument to someone else because of their differing views they literally just don't agree because they can't. their views differ too much. it's not about them being a twat and thinking no one elses opinions matter, it's about them not being able to accept the reasons put forth by the other person because their reasoning doesn't make sense to them because it's not based on things that align with their views, so to them it's invalid i would heavily disagree on this lol but without getting anecdotal there's not much else i can say on this point again what one person thinks is "solid" or "undeniable" is not universal lol okay so then what is the point of the whole "consensus" thing in this argument
May 2, 2017 they totally can, their taste doesn't make it impossible. i thought Future was talentless s--- for a while, saw peoples arguments on how hes a god tier songwriter with all sorts of examples. changed my perspective on him completely i'm talking validity strictly not what type of sounds or anything of the like. if its valid its cogent and sound. all that stuff listed above is affected by personal feelings but you can make a valid argument as to why you think that stuff was done or executed well. unless youre a twat you dont think like that though. its not unusual at all to accept reasons from outside opinions. if you cant disprove it its undeniable. its indisputable. thats not subjective. it gets the argument recognized is the point. its not a "lot of people agree that means its true" type thing. it means the argument is strong.
May 2, 2017 how's it going to be valid tho if it's still stemming from your personal feelings on what makes something good or bad to you and this is again circular cause you're pretty much saying if it's valid it's valid, but not saying how something would be actually valid or how it's not going to be subjective arguments that can and will 9 times out of 10 be lost on the other person as their taste doesn't line up and therefore they don't buy into someone elses arguments or what have you ffs you're still completely missing what i'm saying here i literally don't know another way of putting it now because you've missed it and or interpreted it wrong every time so far except who proved it in the first place to make it "undeniable" and this goes back to my point on what one person considers valid or not, which i can't seem to make you understand on any level, so i can't even say anything further to you on this topic but what is the point of the consensus being recognized lol and how does it equal anything but popularity tho, again, circular lol all throughout this you essentially keep saying certain things are because they are, and i just don't even know what to say anymore because the basis of my point that i keep trying to explain to you that goes with what i'm saying is being completely missed by you for like 3 posts now
May 2, 2017 also ur whole thing with liking future or whatever is completely anecdotal and not representative of most ppl, especially not here vast majority of ppl are extremely stubborn and refuse to even entertain the notion of any sort of subjectivity in music, and are in fact NOT swayed by peoples opinions in fact i'd argue you weren't swayed either, and that you like future now not because of anything anyone else said but because given enough time with his music you were simply predisposed to like it anyways
