Apr 9, 2020 Nah at best Renegade is a draw? Dont understand ppl who saw jay washed him on one of his most iconic, renowned verses. smells of revisionism out of curiosity what were his 2002 cracks? drips? id put it more at '03 but you know remember better than me
Apr 9, 2020 I've always gravitated towards Jay's verses. I mean this is one of the best verses I've heard in my entire life. By anybody. I thought that in 01 and I think that now. I had to hustle, my back to the wall, ashy knuckles Pockets filled with a lotta lint, not a cent Gotta vent, lotta innocent lives lost on the project bench What you hollerin'? Gotta pay rent, bring dollars in By the bodega, iron under my coat Feelin' braver, durag wrappin' my waves up, pockets full of hope Do not step to me, I'm awkward, I box lefty An orphan my pops left me and often my momma wasn't home Could not stress to me, I wasn't grown 'Specially on nights I brought somethin' home to quiet the stomach rumblings My demeanor, thirty years my senior My childhood didn't mean much, only raisin' green up Raisin' my fingers to critics, raisin' my head to the sky Big, I did it, multi before I die No lie, just know I chose my own fate I drove by the fork in the road and went straight Also, "Do you fools listen to music or skim through it?" is one of the most iconic lines in the history of rap. Meanwhile, yeah Eminem introduced a new flow at the time and had a good first verse but in his final verse he was blabbering about nothing. I would argue the revisionist history came from Nas' line in Ether and people just kind of took that as gospel. As far as the cracks in 02 I'd point to the Love Me bit that I posted on the last page, parts of Rap Game that I can't remember right now and then that Wanksta freestyle. Also, and people will disagree with this- but the Don't Push Me verse has a bit of that drugged out flow with some questionable lyrics. I've never been a fan of it. That leaked like the first week of 2003 IIRC.
Apr 9, 2020 Both artists are great on renegade but I'd rank the verses: Jay 2nd verse > Em 1st verse > em 2nd verse > Jay 1st verse From a pure writing standpoint Jay's first verse is better than Em's second, but taking flow into account em's 2nd verse sounds much more exciting on the actual song even if it's not as well written.
Apr 9, 2020 Don't wanna defend winter but I'd personally put american gangster, black album and blueprint above eminems albums but as far as rapping goes (features, individual songs) I really can't pick. Jay is my favorite rapper OAT based on his whole career but prime em was really really great.
Apr 9, 2020 Jay a punk though, he's soft. His whole persona is fake... Probably a backwards thought process but for me if you talk that gangster s---, at least have a background. Jay got some heat but he loses points because his image is fake. 50 says it best here It's like that fat n-----, he's a C.O, but raps and pretends to be a drug kingpin. I can't get with it, too old school.
Apr 9, 2020 Which isn't a good thing but the dude did grow up around drugs and street life. Lots of rappers are wannabe gangsters but even tho hov is a rich ceo today doesn't mean he didn't live 'that life' when he was younger
Apr 9, 2020 I get where you’re coming from but if you wrote off every rapper who exaggerated their stories there’d be no one left to listen to. Nas invented the Escobar persona on It Was Written, Pusha T wasn’t the Scarface kingpin he embodies in his music, but they’re both still legends who deserve all the praise that they get.
Apr 9, 2020 Also @BIGFOOT I have more respect for jay who grew up and became a responsible adult than 40-50 year olds still acting like f---ing children like fifty cent and the game
Apr 9, 2020 True I like Onyx but it's known they ain't really like that irl, sold drugs but that's about it. Jay though, i just don't like the guy, he's snakey for no reason... Remember when he tried to play E Money Bags funny for no reason at all. Jay wouldn't come outside after E went at him, but Jay likes to tell a different story. 50 is trolling. Remember when he tried trolling Busta and Busta didn't like it? 50 stopped straight away. 50 has a childish mentality because he's a product of his Environment, they're big kids mostly. But I get where you're coming from.
Apr 9, 2020 respectively i disagree here. I think it's one of his most cogent, playful verses ever. besides rattling off "how" he's such a renegade, it's him in real time debating various perceptions of him. if this were a college essay or w/e, the premise of the verse and maybe if not the song but this era of em is: "We as a people decide if Shady's as bad as they say he is/ Or is he the latter, a gateway to escape?" pretty compelling question. the whole song crescendos w this verse - jay sets the table but the song wouldnt be nearly as classic if this verse didnt deliver imo. And again, taking a step back. the em portions were already done as you def know before jay got involved. so hes literally writing to match em as part of the 'lyrical exercise'. maybe you could suss out, ok jays just as fluid or ~maybe exceeds him on some technical or literacy level, i get that. personal preference - jays great. but thats not rly the point. this is eminem at his most unleashed as a media fixture, the devil on your shoulder persona. pure zeitgeist. i just dont see how it compares. to each their own ofc/ dont agree w ur verse ranking bc its all so close. but on the charisma level or maybe pop appeal i tip it to em slightly. good pts tho
Apr 9, 2020 Em in 2002 was still a monster, there's no papering that at all in spite of some good observations made. I have no doubt he would stepped up to the plate considering he'd be highly motivated to cement his status all in the same arena with these 3 other exalted writers. With that being said, there's no debating that Jay & Nas were at their zenith at the time. Hov backing out of this had simply to do with the fact he wanted nothing to do or even be near Nas. h--- I still don't know who really had the better verses on Renegade. Hov's verses are so poignant and written to perfection, Eminem had that crazy flow and the self-awareness to his own vilified status made his last verse feel larger than life.
Apr 9, 2020 I agree with your entire post but I just want to clarify that by no means did I say Eminem was not great in 2002. 2002 Eminem made by far the best music in my eyes. Just timeless stuff for the most part. Like I said earlier though as subtle as they may have been the cracks were starting to show. In 2001 this was a throwaway freestyle A little over a year later this was Pre-2002 Eminem literally everything the man touched was Gold and there were no wasted words or bars. He killed every song and every feature. By the end of 2002 that had slowly started to change and in 2003 and obviously 2004 it was a real problem(though he still put out pretty incredible work like Lady, half of Encore) But it makes sense. According to him the drug use got out of control filming 8 Mile which was late 01/Early 02. By late 02 the train had slowly but surely started to come off the tracks.
Apr 9, 2020 Absolutely, I never interpreted your observations as such. If anything, I only wanted to acknowledge those great points to this conversation. I’m no Eminem fan by any means, but I always felt this appreciation for how personal & filter-free The Eminem Show was. In spite of some obvious flaws, there is something bone-chilling and yet inspiring hearing Em’s deepest thoughts as you can tell he was grappling with those aforementioned demons meanwhile those moments of genius shined through.
Apr 10, 2020 This entire post is just diarrhea. Regarding the part I put in bold: It's cuz he's black. Black rappers will respect elder black rappers, just like white rappers will respect Eminem.
Apr 10, 2020 @M Solo Why is Eminem not allowed to make a dumb song like that "Wanksta" freestyle? You think it's easy to write gold every time? 1999-2002 were his best years because that's when he had the most drama going on in his life. It fueled his creativity and kept him wanting to prove everybody wrong. Unfortunately, a period like that will end. You cannot be in drama your entire life. I guess my main point is, so what if the cracks were starting to show? The man had the greatest run in Hip-Hop, dropped the best verses in a four year span, dropped three classics in a row, became the highest selling rapper of all time, and one of the biggest musicians on the PLANET, and mofuckas don't even wanna let him have his fun? Shiiiiiit.
