Politics 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary

Started by Enigma, Feb 19, 2019, in Life Add to Reading List

  1. Enigma
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    Enigma Civil liberties > Police safety

    Jan 21, 2020
    This framing is exactly the issue here. 8 months ago, I don’t think you’d be associating Warren with establishment figures like Obama. Warren was one of the leaders of the progressive/anti-establishment movement with Bernie Sanders for the last 3-4 years. but now that she’s running against Sanders—she’s a compromise candidate lol. No. Kamala Harris was the compromise candidate. She would have been the “obama-like” candidate.

    Electability & governance. I was vocal after 2016 that those figure heads/leaders of the Democratic Party in 2016 needed to step aside in 2020. I wanted new faces in this presidential election like a Kamala Harris or even a Pete Buttigieg even though I don’t agree with him entirely. I wanted a lot of new, young, fresh faces in this presidential election because I wanted voters to be invigorated & excited. I was hoping this to be a passing of the torch kind of election. Unfortunately that didn’t happen because the old guard (Biden/Sanders) decided it was still their time. That’s unfortunate & I hope it doesn’t backfire horribly.

    As far as governing—I just don’t know how Sanders would govern. I mean, his campaign promises are bold & I support pretty much all of them but he’s going to have to compromise. That’s just the reality of our governmental system: compromise is necessary. I don’t know if he’s willing to do that; if he can do that; & if not, what’s really going to get done? The big problem I think I have with most progressives is the time frame of policy goals such as universial healthcare, environmental policy, economic policy etc. I believe in incremental change & most progressive (especially in the Sanders camp) seem to want to enact massive change at the snap of their fingers. The later just isn’t realistic or feasible & that’s what a lot of them don’t understand.
     
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  2. Head Bussa
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    Jan 21, 2020
    That’s a caricature the media paints. “ Bernie Bros are sexist.” His campaign is “mean and toxic.” They have beaten a dead horse with that narrative. Every campaign has s-----y people who tweet nasty things to supporters of other candidates.

    Stuff like this is actually toxic and divisive. Hillary, Obama and other elites with actual power looking down on Bernie and the movement he helped start because he’s an outsider. They’re the ones being divisive and toxic.
     
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  3. Head Bussa
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    Jan 21, 2020
    It’s not like we all of a sudden started criticizing Warren, @Enigma. She has gradually pivoted and catered to the DNC and the establishment with voting for Trump‘s military budget, waffling on Medicare for all, calling Bernie sexist, not criticizing Biden with wanting to cut social security, hiring flunkie Hillary and Kamala staffers. All of this matters. She has surrounded herself with establishment figures and has been courting Establishment leaning superdelegates the past year. She’s a faux progressive who would gladly stab progressives in the back and lean towards establishment policies.
     
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  4. Head Bussa
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    Jan 21, 2020
     
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  5. Head Bussa
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    Jan 22, 2020
    “Electability & governance. I was vocal after 2016 that those figure heads/leaders of the Democratic Party in 2016 needed to step aside in 2020. I wanted new faces in this presidential election like a Kamala Harris or even a Pete Buttigieg even though I don’t agree with him entirely. I wanted a lot of new, young, fresh faces in this presidential election because I wanted voters to be invigorated & excited. I was hoping this to be a passing of the torch kind of election. Unfortunately that didn’t happen because the old guard (Biden/Sanders) decided it was still their time. That’s unfortunate & I hope it doesn’t backfire horribly.“

    Policies over image and age, bro. Sanders isn’t an old guard. Biden represents the old guard. Pete represents the old guard. Kamala, Klobuchar and Beto represent the old guard. They’re all establishment approved candidates.

    Fresh faces don’t excite folks anymore, @Enigma. It’s not 1990. Policies are what excites folks. You still don’t understand how much people are suffering out there. They want someone in office who will fight tooth and nail for their well being and put policies in place that save their lives.

    Did you see Warren’s Medicare for all rollout? It was god awful.

    Pete’s plan underfunds healthcare and would fall apart. Same with Biden’s. They leave the door open for private health insurance companies because they’re in bed with them.

    You don’t realize how important it is to fight for Medicare for all. If you truly support that policy you’d be backing Bernard Sanders.
     
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  6. Head Bussa
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    Jan 24, 2020
     
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  7. Lil Squeed
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    Lil Squeed French Montana Stan

    Jan 24, 2020
    the right blows but god d--- the left is annoying
     
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  8. Enigma
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    Enigma Civil liberties > Police safety

    Jan 26, 2020
    Sanders & Biden practically tied in Iowa right now. Sanders surging late. I wonder if it’ll last until voting starts next week or if it will die down some.
     
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  9. Head Bussa
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    Jan 30, 2020
     
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  10. DKC
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    DKC hank trill

    Jan 30, 2020
    Forgot to respond to this—8 months ago (or whenever Warren threw her hat in the ring), I felt exactly that—I felt she she was a compromise candidate because she could draw appeal from both progressives and from the establishment. In fact back then I was very skeptical of Bernie running again and was leaning toward Warren, especially because Sanders didn't wow me in the first debate. If it comes down to Warren I will gladly vote for Warren—I think she'd probably be one of the better presidents we've had in a long time—but I just don't trust her on the same level that I trust Bernie. I want someone who's truly going to fight for change.

    Like I made fun of Andrew Yang (and continue to do so) because he's an easy target but I'm happy he's in the conversation and is pushing ideas that are engaging people in politics who I'd never seen give a s--- before. I can respect that and I've grown to believe that his heart is in the right place.

    I have a question: what does "electability" mean to you in a post-Trump America? I'm not being an a------, it's a legitimate question, cuz all notions of electability in a more traditional sense were thrown out the window for me after 2016 lol.

    I guess what it comes down to is that it bothers me when people dismiss me and other Sanders supporters as not understanding how the world works or as 100% idealists with no sense of reality. I don't expect Sanders or any president to be able to get into office and immediately accomplish everything they said they wanted to or even to get everything done that they wanted to in a 4 or 8 year term. I know it's more complicated than I could truly understand without getting into politics myself. I'm sure there are people who believe everything can get done in a snap, but there are people who expect whatever candidate they support will immediately be able to accomplish what they want to as soon as they get in office.

    But it's weak to me when people scoff at Bernie supporters like it's ridiculous or out of the realm of possibility to want things that are human rights in most other developed countries or to try to reform our country on higher level. Like these things are never going to become a reality unless you try to elect people who want them to be a reality. If Bernie gets elected I don't expect him to get all these things done, but I do expect that he'll help pave the way for future presidents to continue where he left off.

    Who do you support at this point?
     
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  11. Enigma
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    Enigma Civil liberties > Police safety

    Jan 30, 2020
    This is over compensation which I think I mentioned to you earlier. One election year doesn’t mean throw out everything we know about American politics & U.S. elections. That’s just silly. There were definitely mistakes to be learned from 2016 but also the media played a significant role in this narrative of Trump not having a legitimate chance of winning. I bought into it, pundits bought into it, a lot of people did. The polling, especially close to Election Day was pretty *clear* that he had a shot. It wasn’t like some moon shot like people tend to frame Trump’s election win as. Maybe when he first announced he was running it was but come the general election—he always had a significant chance (>15%).

    My electability concerns with Bernie have more to do with the GOP propaganda machine. I don’t have an issue with him identifying as a democratic socialist but that labeling requires a more in-depth conversation that in presidential elections—you typically don’t have. How the GOP can capitalize on that does scare me because it can push older or moderate or independent voters away—even if it means not voting for anyone or voting 3rd party. That’s a base democrats need to win at least a significant chunk of if they hope to win in 2020. Millennials are not winning you a presidential election.

    It’s hard elect people who will fight for progressive values when there’s this staunch litmus test that their values must be consistent their entire lives! I’m not saying that’s you but a lot of Sanders supporters do set this ridiculous bar not recognizing that Sanders values aren’t popular in every region of the country. Disagreement on policy is ok. Gradually progressing is ok. That’s how progressives win. Not by demonizing everyone who’s not Bernie Sanders or AOC. That’s what I find the most bothersome.
     
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  12. dester23
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    dester23 DonChapagneson

    Jan 30, 2020
    imagine voting other that is not bernie, y'all americans crazy
     
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  13. DKC
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    DKC hank trill

    Jan 30, 2020
    I do recall most people on this forum thinking he had no chance and not taking him seriously...and maybe "thrown out the window" was the wrong term but I'd argue that the 2016 election at least changed many people's perception of who or what a presidential candidate can be. Because I certainly wouldn't have believed you if in 2015 if you told me Trump was going to win (h---, I didn't even start to believe it could happen until the day of the election).

    I'm with you on the democratic socialist thing, that's my biggest reservation with Bernie because just the word "socialism" still scares so many people and like you said there's not really a time or place to explain what that actually means without bias from either side during a presidential election.

    For me personally, you don't have to have held the same progressive values your whole life by any means (I certainly didn't)—I mean look at how many dems opposed gay marriage until a decade ago—but the fact that Bernie has is part of what makes me believe that he truly shares a lot of the same values as me and isn't just doing it for show. I do think in general that we need to hold the people who represent us to higher standards, but you can't change the past and I respect when people, especially politicians, say "I used to believe this but I was wrong, this is what I believe now."

    And trust me I live in the south now, I'm very much aware that my views are not popular everywhere hahahahahaha. But a lot of people don't realize how much of a bubble they are in, which was something that was especially frustrating about living in Seattle to me. Like in the world I live in it would be easy to think "where are the joe biden supporters" because most people I interact with are younger people who support either Bernie or Warren, and I don't encounter very many Biden supporters online because his demographic skews older. But the old guy with no internet or cell phone who has CNN/Fox/etc. on all day is still going to drive to the polling station on election day to vote for Biden or Trump or whoever.

    Anyway, I apologize if I ever come across as too stubborn or negative about other candidates but as I'm sure you know living in this country has never been more frustrating lol.
     
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  14. lil uzi vert stan
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    Jan 30, 2020
    yes. 2016 is such a weird, f----- up year. you cant boil trumps win down to 'hillary wasnt progressive enough or had enough enthusisam.' thats the wrong lesson - look at 2018, and practically any other cycle..... what the successful dem political coalition was
     
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  15. DKC
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    DKC hank trill

    Jan 30, 2020
    what lesson do you take away from it?
     
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  16. WPG
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    WPG sxn80 Rory Gilmore

    Jan 30, 2020
    when bernie curb stomps biden over the next 60 days >>>>>>>>>>>>
     
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  17. lil uzi vert stan
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    Jan 30, 2020
    Yikes that George Wallace quote!


    From 2016? Media complacency comes to mind - you could write a book about what went wrong. But her loss is a lot more complex than the vacuum or ahistorical assumptions being made.
     
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  18. WPG
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    WPG sxn80 Rory Gilmore

    Jan 30, 2020
    oh come on lol he was talking about how demagogues seize power –– he compared his rise to hitler's!
     
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  19. lil uzi vert stan
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    Jan 30, 2020
    That rationalization might play in lily white states, but I suspect the only “curb stomping” in nc, etc will be done by biden

    Edit - willing to bet on it but ur still in debt!!
     
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  20. WPG
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    WPG sxn80 Rory Gilmore

    Jan 30, 2020
    u are literally parroting a lazy smear attempt by the WASHINGTON EXAMINER please go cook ur wife dinner
     
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