May 2, 2016

(this goes for everyone here. we're talking about lemonade right now. eminem wasn't the first popular entertainer to drive buzz through an album's personal narratives -- making their music a reality tv mystery/puzzle that listeners needed to crack, etc. -- but he tapped into that in a way seldom seen before, especially for a rapper. fueling interest in music/show by making the ppl in ur personal life speculative characters is fairly standard now, but eminem should be noted for the way he pioneered that bridging)

 

May 2, 2016

But the albums really don't hold up like they ought to! And influence arguments aside, isn't that what really matters at the end of the day? It is to me.

 

May 2, 2016

you still haven't dropped this nonsense

 

May 2, 2016

for sure. i think it's a question of overstatement tho. the content doesnt inoculate itself like (edit, some) albums. theyre too specific - from the anger to the pop culture references - but i dont think liking sslp/mmlp/tes should be a scarlet letter either.

 

May 2, 2016

It shouldn't, you're right. And...it isn't.

 

May 2, 2016

Most rap critics still consider MMLP a classic

A lot of opinions here happen to be in the minority, which I respect but don't exactly reflect "quality taste"

In this particular case I don't mind this and some of the other choices, since it gives room to include more "obscure" Hip Hop and introduce new artists

That was kinda the intention of the thread right?

 

May 2, 2016

f--- off

 

May 2, 2016

"quality taste" is clearly what this list reflects lol...the fact that it doesn't pander to the typical choices is proof of that. Albums like MMLP coast on their legacy and have long since fallen out of critical discussions.

 

May 2, 2016

I'd say it's a good balance between typical choices (GKMC, CD, Stankonia, Lost Tapes, h--- Hath No Fury, MBDTF, Blueprint, etc.) and more "odd" Hip Hop (rest of the list).

There are clearly some notable absences (as WPG stated in the OP) but I value more this balance and inclusion of less known rap rather than just a copypaste of the most famous classics

And lol from what critical discussions has MMLP "fallen out"?

 

May 2, 2016

by this i meant that people are past trying to properly breakdown any of Eminem's previous work. They'd rather just assume projects like MMLP deserve to be among the best from the past decade rather than be critical about their shortcomings.

 

May 2, 2016

That's a fair argument but it can apply to other "classic" projects too

 

May 2, 2016

Like which? Ems first three albums fail in MANY ways upon closer inspection, yet people outright ignore the shortcomings due to legacy

What are some other examples?

 

May 2, 2016

I mean, yeah, a lot do. I don't. Most of the ones I respect the most don't either. It's not some across-the-board consensus that I'm bravely breaking.

lol

No, the intention of the thread was to list the 20(+) best albums since the start of 2000. I think these all qualify ahead of the ones I didn't include. What do you think would have to be in here for it to be "quality"?

Also, and for the record: there's not one album on here that wasn't wildly popular with at least one subset of rap fans. I'm not pulling demos off the pile.

I don't think we're talking about the same space. I'm not sure if it was in one of the posts you read, but elsewhere in this thread I was talking about how Eminem really reflected the angry teenagers of the turn of the century, but that the teens a decade later had no interest in breaking windows the way they did. Rapping with Marilyn Manson and beefing with Limp Bizkit doesn't pave the way for Mac Miller. "Fight Music" was for 10th graders who painted their nails black and wrote poems about death a lot; Asher Roth was for happy kids with trust funds.

I should also point out that I think "paving the way for frat rap" would be a terrible legacy to have. I'm not denying Eminem of anything that (I think) is some great honor.

He absolutely does

See again...I'm not sure he did within rap, and certainly not at the peak of his popularity.

This is splitting hairs, because I don't think that's a reason MMLP doesn't hold up.

lol. Not sure though--I don't think I have a critical blindspot when it comes to him. Do you think his work holds up at all?

 

May 2, 2016

I'd give my perspective about it but I have really unpopular opinions towards some of these classic projects and I don't want to play outside of my lane

It's true that the pop culture references in SSLP and TES are outdated but MMLP still remains relatively timeless thanks to the strength of its highlights

 

May 2, 2016

I'm not questioning the quality of these more "obscure" records, I was actually giving you props for having a less conventional list lol

And I meant popular on lists of this kind, not just Hip Hop in general

 

May 2, 2016

And thanks for that, but I'm not putting things on here to be weird or obscure. I think these are the 20 best records.

 

May 2, 2016

Great list, obviously mine would be somewhat different. I was wondering if any T.I. or Lupe projects were close to getting into the list/in top 30?

 

May 2, 2016

what ppl? which legacy? feels like "real" hhhs are committed to treating eminem like hes vanilla ice. and where is ur list? paul has posted his, shouldnt be that hard to ctrl+v

Well, wait a minute, I don't think it's intellectually dishonest to (briefly) conflate what what we're talking about. "Rock rap" or however you want to describe was a subgenre in the late 90s; Eminem flirted with that strand of rap - especially in the advent of SSLP - before he embraced more reactionary pathos in MMLP; it's fair to say the same types of fans who liked RATM and Beastie Boys in 1997, also liked Eminem in 1999 when he did Warped Tour, and later went to see Asher Roth play at santa fe in college park when I Love College was popular.

You're being a tad deductive by assuming fight music was only for kids who painted their nails black. My friends liked Hello Nasty, Californation and SSLP in middle school. They liked MMLP too (and weren't against Asher, at least not initially, later on). There's a connective line you're rly underselling. it's overexposed, but youre crazy to think lose yourself doesn't hold up.

Understanding guys my age listened to rock groups that rapped, and rappers who easily crossed over into "rotation at rock'n'roll stations" is key imo. eminem's homophobia/misogyny/cartoonish violence/pop culture references certainly don't hold up. but i think there's a lot more to his legacy than that. im reluctant to cite actual examples for fear of being further bullied and stained with a scarlet letter. i will say i think the cult of personality in mainstream rap -- namedropping the people in your life, crafting a diary-like narrative -- took on a new hue after eminem's peak. you may think it's corny, but cleaning out my closet att was rly powerful, and i totally see confessional connective tissue from that to what kanye does now. does eminem's work rly live in a vacuum? in an era where music is soo accessible, even disposable, you don't think eminem deserves a little credit for elucidating just how compelling a personal narrative can be in carrying an album?

 

May 2, 2016

Isn't Tyler, The Creator an example of Eminem's artistic legacy?

It's fair to distinguish cultural legacy from artistic legacy cause I'm not sure Eminem has influenced as many people artistically as he has culturally (connecting to audiences who traditionally dismissed hip-hop as an art form). Helping people enjoy an art form doesn't mean you shape the next generation of creators. Though, Eminem's legacy certainly goes beyond Frat Boy rap.

 

May 2, 2016

::stands over @WPG's lifeless corpse::

this, my children, is why i dine with the s80 'Best Debator' chalice