Jan 17, 2020

Healthcare costs in terms of what? Percentage of GDP? They’ve been going up for decades. Long before the ACA was passed.

What do you have to support this? How do I know this is true. Do you have any data to support this?

Also, when did “lazy people” become such a large issue? We’ve had these social programs since the 40s. At what point did “lazy people” start abusing these programs? What changed to allow them to abuse these programs?

No, for the love of god I don’t want anymore of your stories. Please. This isn’t hard to grasp: we’re talking about welfare programs for a country with over 300 million people. Just because you claim to have seen a person or people misuse welfare programs does not make it a nationwide issue. For one, I have no way of verifying whether what you’re telling me is true or not & secondly, even if I do believe you—that doesn’t mean misuse of these programs is a wide spread, nation wide issue. Therefore, you personal stories are moot.

These programs weren’t small during the New Deal era though & that’s when you said they worked best. During that time period, these were massive social safety net programs that people on the right were labeling as a stepping stones toward communism—as I pointed out earlier.

 

Jan 17, 2020

Credit to Enigma for trying his best with these Trump supporters, I could never do that in part cuz it’s too d--- frustrating for me.

2020 is looking bad, I’m definitely worried. Not much if anything seems to change peoples loyalty and trust to Donald.

 

Jan 17, 2020

https://www.gobankingrates.com/maki...y-way-people-advantage-government-assistance/
https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/ins...e-in-entitlement-programs-benefits-fraud.html

I could list sources all day. It's an obvious and known problem, you can choose to ignore it if you like. Also is it working? Look at the state were in.. the mor we increase it the worse off we've been.

And yes the healthcare has risen across the board for a long time, an indication that something is off. In nearly every instance private healthcare has proven cheaper competition drives down cost.

You generalize every bit as much as I have, I'm typing this from a cell phone it's not an ideal way to express ideas and thoughts so I'm keeping it short and sweet. I didn't want my post to be narrative driven sources like yours have been.

It's painfully obvious you have 0 real world experience as you keep discounting it. What do you mean my stories don't matter? I am the middle working class American I'm surrounded by them I have a grasp on how things are going in the real world. Not data derived from s-----y ineffective methods

You're not in any way proving your points. You have 0 rebuttal to the ill effects of over socializing things. It creates a far weaker society.. you assume no corruption. Facts of the matter : Trump tax cuts help middle class, by all accounts. He's brought the middle class back in fact, while I disagree with his brash and immature social outbursts he's done wonders with economy and has undone a lot of the mess the Obama admin left behind and for that I applaud him.

https://evidencebasedprograms.org/
https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/fraud-and-abuse

And not sure if you're thinking I'm saying the great depression was altered by the intro of social programs. I'm staying that it's nice the concept was introduced and it certainly helped people who needed it, what Drew us out of depression was the war and it's industrial nature,u coupled with a large cut in govt spending after it ended. In fact there was a second new deal in the works to be in place after the war but it was rejected based on failures of the first.

 

Jan 17, 2020

Your first source generally lays out that fraud exists & the arguments that individuals against social welfare programs make. Of course fraud exists. I think everyone can acknowledge that.

Your second source is a study published by the professional service network Deloitte. It elaborates how improper payments within government are extremely common & run in the billions of dollars. However, it goes on to state that these improper payments are not always in the form of fraud. Mishandled paperwork, poor government oversight, misread figures etc. all contribute to improper payments. They also go on to suggest ways to address these issues through (shocker...I know) a service network lol. So there’s definitely a motive within this study but take it as you wish.

Neither of these sources directly support your claim that “lazy people” are burdening the social welfare program though. There’s always been improper payments when it comes to government assistance. That’s not a new issue—it occurred in the 40s, 50s & so on. I’m not sure what you’re demanding for here. This is more a government oversight issue than it is people being lazy.

Then why did you suggest the ACA caused healthcare costs to increase “across the board” when you knew healthcare costs have been increasing for far longer? Lol. If private insurance has proven to be cheaper, why do you support Medicare & Medicaid? Why does the U.S. spend more on healthcare than other developed countries who have universal healthcare?

“A guy sees someone beat the s--- out of a guy with a baseball bat. That guy then demands baseball bats be banned.”

^ That is why anecdotal evidence is moot. There’s no way to verify that actually happened & it doesn’t prove that people are being mass beaten with baseball bats. Your personal stories do not matter. I don’t care where you’re from or where you grew up. Your stories are not fact & that’s all that matters here.

Brought them back by what measure? How is giving a huge tax cuts to the wealthy helping the middle-class? The money isn’t trickling down. Politicians have been saying it will trickle down since the 80s & income inequality has only worsened since. Why?

Dude...WWII doesn’t start until September of 1939. U.S. involvement doesn’t happen until years after that. But even by 1939, historians declare the Great Depression as largely over. Sure, the war helped jolt the U.S. economy but to state the New Deal didn’t pull the U.S. out the Great Depression is just not true at all.

 

Jan 17, 2020

I'm aware of what the sources point out, I sent them to you genius. It proves my entire point of quoting pointless sources, if you search for evidence of your political theory on the vast web you'll undoubtedly find articles and stats defending your ideas. Either way you spin it, bias is rampant and so are narratives in the sources we quote. So why do it? Gets us no where.

The stories literally are fact they're personal experiences do you know what fact means? Jesus Christ you're simple

And it's one thousand percent true I've literally never seen any credible evidence otherwise. The war was far more responsible and the nation showed it's views towards the new deal as it was proposed a second time. Lmao things were great in 39 when unemployment was 17+% .. you having fun spewing bull s--- or? Why are you responding? You're adding nothing to this, and failing miserably to pick apart ideas you can't handle because they aren't the same as yours. Life is better for you in the echo chamber, close minded parrot.


Oh and the bat argument... Wtf does that have to do with anything? What a pathetic attempt to detail your thinking... You can believe the stories or not I truly don't care they certainly happened .. honestly at a laughable rate.

 

Jan 18, 2020

this. props to you enigma, it must be exhausting

 

Jan 18, 2020

Some sources are more valid than others—yes but I didn’t even disregard the information your source provided. I believe it. There’s citations to support most the figures there. The problem with your sources is that they don’t support the claim you’re making lol: “lazy people” are abusing welfare programs on a large scale.

Dude.... the Great Depression ran from 1929 to 1939. WWII began in September of 1939. U.S. involvement didn’t happen until 1941 years after the Great Depression ended lol. I never said the economy was perfect in 1939. Unemployment was at its peak in 1933 & the economy slowly started to improve from there on with numerous ups & downs. These are literal historical facts...you’re just wrong. I don’t know what else to tell you.

I literally have no way to verify that. You could be making s--- up. Idk. Therefore, your personal experiences do not matter.

 

Jan 20, 2020

Mitch McConnel is actively organizing a cover up. We all knew this was coming though.

 

Jan 30, 2020

Senate Republicans will vote to acquit President Trump tomorrow without hearing any witness testimony. Every senate impeachment trial in the history of the U.S. has had witnesses testify until now. Disgraceful. This is a cover up & should be labeled & portrayed as such.

 

Feb 4, 2020

 

Feb 4, 2020

 

Feb 12, 2020

It’s mind boggling how corrupt the Trump administration is in broad daylight & you know none of these people will ever go to jail for their corruption.

 

Feb 13, 2020

It's not a historical fact at all. The economy suffered up until the war, when it then changed drastically with all efforts on the war. The real benifit came from a drop in government spending post war. See this link, it details my point.
https://www.heritage.org/trade/commentary/what-really-ended-the-great-depression

In fact I'd say the new deal is a good concept to show social programs aren't a necessarily a fix. If anything they can be better described as a band-aid (as the new deal clearly was, any rebuttal to that shows a lack of knowledge about the late 30s and 40s)


Also your link to the great depression literally ties the end to the war effort in the last paragraph..



To end my portion in this debate I can simply state I don't feel social programs, even ones that are good in theory, work very well over extended periods of time. As previously mentioned, it inspires mediocrity in my opinion. It gives a fall back that sometimes just shouldn't be there. I believe we're probably taxed enough right now to implement some powerful social programs - but that's not how it works. The government has proven repeatedly to be inept in terms of federal spending... Note the corruption at your local levels then imagine it on a grand scale.

 

Feb 13, 2020

My dude, it’s literally a subheading:



Citing an article from Stephen Moore, “chief economist at the Heritage Foundation,” a conservative think tank, doesn’t dispute anything here. Just because the Great Depression had ended by the start of WWII doesn’t mean the economy had fully recovered. It means the economy (the U.S. & the rest of the world) had already shown signs of recovery. The economy started to slowly recover after 1933. This was years before WWII began.

To give another relevant example—The Great Recession ended in June 2009. Unemployment still rose until 2010. However, the recession was indeed over at that point. A recession is two consecutive quarters of economic decline. Once that is broken by even the smallest amount of economic growth, by definition, the recession is over; even if the negative impacts aren’t fully felt.

 

Feb 13, 2020

Read the last few paragraphs again.

Also the economy fluctuated frequently throughout the 30s, as you mentioned.. however to claim the depression was over is laughable! Look at the economic trends, the economy wasn't showing great signs of recovery they were sporadic and had a poor outlook to be frank. It's simply not debatable that the cut in government spending after our war based economy played out did far more than the new deal dreamed of doing in far less time. Shrinking the government literally provided years of prosperity ... The new deal leaving unemployment rates around 14-18 percent in the years leading up to the war prove things were in a really really bad state. Wether you consider the great depression to be over or not (which is clearly debatable) the economy was going no where and was left in a really bad spot before the war started.

In fact, one would have a very strong argument in claiming the US involvement in WW2 in 1939 is what led to what you call "the end" of the great depression. While we weren't involved in combat per se, we began to produce munitions for our eventual allies. I mean come on, the 1937 recession proves we were trending up how?

It's also pretty well noted any economic recovery we had from 33-36 was due in large part to an influx of gold from Europe. It's price had risen nearly $15 dollars if I remember correctly and as a result we had inflated economic statistics. The halt of this influx can also be tied greatly to the recession I mentioned.

You can argue the source, not the stats behind it. It's no different than you posting liberal leaning sources sir.

 

Feb 13, 2020

As I said, this is the definition of a recession:

The U.S. economy shrunk from from 1930-1933 (great depression). The U.S. economy then grew from 1934-1937 before beginning to shrink again in 1938. By definition, since the U.S. economy began to grow after 1933, the Great Depression was over. This isn't an opinion; this isn't debatable; this is literally based on the definition of the word recession with economic growth figures to back it up.

You can say WWII helped the U.S. recover from the Great Depression. That is true and pretty much everyone agrees with that. That's not the same as saying it got the country out of the Great Depression. That's historically and factually false.

Then why did the U.S. economy go into a recession in 1945 when the war was coming to an end?

 

Feb 13, 2020

Lol you mean the 8 months (during which government employees were being laid off due to a lack of need for certain positions after the war) followed by ten years of unseen prosperity? Come on, your argument is cooked. The new deal wasn't what saved the US economy. In any way shape or form.. and if it rose in 33 why does your source claim '39 was the end?

You're trying to sway the goal post here, your underlying argument isn't correct. Your whole point was social acts saved us from the great depression which simply isn't true. It did the least to aid the us in recovery of all the things we discussed.

 

Feb 13, 2020

There was another recession in 1948, 3 years later that lasted a year. The shift from a war time to a peace time economy took time. You’re framing of this just isn’t correct. When the war ended, the economy was shakey. From 1945-1955, the U.S. went through 3 recessions.

It helped the U.S. get out of the Great Depression—yes. Hence why the economy began to improve post The New Deal. Was it the sole factor? No. But it was an important one. Especially post WWII where unionization was rampid & the U.S. actually had a strong middle class. The New Deal allowed this to happen.

 

Feb 13, 2020

And then it stagnated, it absolutely didn't allow the strong middle class to come about post WW2. That's pretty convenient thinking for ya ... Again, the cuts in government spending and cut tax rates allowed investors and entrepreneurship to flourish. That can be seen directly in the source you sent and others I've posted. Confidence was regathered. it was pretty evident the new deal was going nowhere, hence the stagnation in unemployment and lack of growth towards the end of the thirties (until our industrial effort for WW2 began). Which completely agrees with my point, social programs can be a bit of a band-aid in tough times but are not the fix. It wasn't the fix there, look at your own source you linked me. There is no comparison.. and again the growth it did see int the 30s had a good deal to do with influx in gold and it's rocketing value and the sheer fact it was astoundingly low to begin with.

 

Feb 14, 2020

The top income tax rate didn’t dip below 70% until the 1980s. Taxes on the rich remained high even after WWII. Over a third of the U.S. work force was in a Union by the mid 1950s. The number of U.S. workers in a union peaked in 1979. You can’t talk about the growth/expansion of the U.S. economy post WWII without talking about unions. Unions are why the “American dream” existed. Unions were strong because of policies in the New Deal that got slowly chipped away, especially once Reagan took office.

We’re talking economics, no sole factor is going to the reason X, Y & Z happened. That’s not how the world works. There’s almost always going to be several factors. Yes—the war played a significant role in the U.S.’s recovery from the Great Depression. So did The New Deal. It gave workers (especially WWII vets)/the poor rights & benefits providing them a ladder up to the middle class. I’m not sure why you’re trying to fight so hard on this; this is a cemented understanding of U.S. history.

Princeton Historian Kevin M Kruse: