GOAT and classic

Started by MichaelsMad, Jul 23, 2019, in Music Add to Reading List

  1. MichaelsMad
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    Jul 23, 2019
    Two terms that i believe are used extremely loosely, they're catch phrases almost. I also feel as if theres not a general understanding or a guideline for either, so in your mind, what are your terms for classifying someone as a GOAT, or a classic album? for me...

    GOAT:
    Impact- What kind of impact did the artist have? what was the publicity they attracted for? was it hype, was it controversy, were they thought provoking, innovative etc. It has to be someone who will leave behind a legacy, not just a hot song for a minute or just a slew of singles. Someone who encased a moment in time, who in 10 to 15 years gives you a nostalgic feeling and brings you back to a time in your past.

    Contribution- Someone who contributed to the genre in the form of sound, content, technical skill set, bringing new eyes to the genre etc. I think LL cool j is a good example bc he has a legacy, but from rock the bells through mama said knock you out it was if he was always advancing the art form with each drop.Granted that was 1984 or 5 to the early 90s so hip hop was in its infancy then, so it was at a better stage for new technical skill sets to be brought forward since there was so much to be explored. i believe Jay is also a good marker for this, someone who has over 20 years staying power at the elite level, he always finds a way to maneuver through whatever state the music is in. I think Eminem is a good example of pushing the technical skill set. current views aside, Him and royce are still finding ways to improve as writers all the time, which is insane considering theyve been in for 20 plus years. Em catches flack for the delivery and execution, to each their own his writing is incredible as well as royce, those 2 compliment each other so well.

    Sales: i try not to ever get caught up on sales, because there are many cases of someone selling extremely well and crossing into pop or having record breaking numbers put up, but to a point they seem to pander to that core audience and strive away from being themselves. that being said, Sales are a very arguable point, esp when someone does it while maintaining their creative freedom and growing as an artist. i feel its usually easy to distinguish between someone growing/ maturing/ experimenting Vs trying to recreate a specific sound, formulating or pandering.

    Insipartion: this one will apply to classic as well. does the artist become a standard, or reference of what it means to be one of the greats? Will they be someone you look to to learn from, to study to see how they adapted, created, and persevere. Who did they inspire, what did they spawn.

    CLASSIC
    Impact : what kind of impact did it have on the genre? did it force people to have to adapt in terms of writing, song structure, sound? i think Jay, Dr dre, Em, Kanye, Kendrick, Cole and drake are examples here in terms of impact. Ive already spoken about jay, but also wanna include his ability to tell his story, and also give life lessons and put people onto some game in terms of dealing with struggle, long term goals, legalities, and financial independence. Dre and kanye for sure set a standard for sound, the experimentation, the obsession and grind to produce and mix some of the things they have is truly incredible. I think Em showed alot in terms of rhyming, bending words, phrasing, and inner and outter rhyme schemes. he took multi syllable rhyming to new heights, as well as introduced the genre to some people who may of never listened to hip hop which has its positives and negatives. Kendrick and Cole are a standard for newer artist IMO. true students to hip hop and their idols and have meshed traits of their idols to them mold into their own, not much to say except theyre incredible
    Album examples: reasonable doubt. chronic/chronic 2001/ MMLP/TES/MBDTF/GKMC/forrest hills

    Replay value: self explanatory (will it have longevity, will it be revisited in 10 years, can you dissect it for years to come.)

    Sales: self explanatory
     
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  2. Michael Myers
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    Michael Myers Moderator

    Jul 24, 2019
    Like I said in the other thread, treating music (or art in general) as science is dumb as f--- lol

    Same w 'good' and 'bad music'

    Imo music is to be enjoyed. That can be in different ways:

    - lyrics can mean something to you, maybe even help you get through something
    - sounds great regardless of the lyrics: in the car, summer playlist, party songs whatever
    - nostalgia; I'm always interested to hear new music from Nas, Dre, Jay, Em, 50 etc because I've been listening to these guys for over a decade. I'm interested in their stories and whenever they drop something personal I care more about it than any other song dropping that day. Even if their music is average or even bad sometimes , nostalgia kicks in whenever I see 'new music: snoop dogg' or another one.

    Pitbull and florida are good examples; they aren't that good as rappers but they make music people enjoy the f--- out of especially at parties. So does that make them good? Or bad?

    Imo neither, it depends on the listener.

    Same with J Cole; he has some deep meaningfull songs that people like that sound boring as f--- to others.. again, why should one side be wrong ?

    There is no guideline what is good or not. Even critics (people that think their opinion has more value) disagree w eachother which proves there is no such thing as right or wrong there lol.

    A little off topic maybe but in general kinda the same as what u said/asked; what decides whether its classic or goat.

    Obviously if a rapper is still talked about 30 years later and their music still being played (biggie, jay) their GOATS and their albums that are still being mentioned classics but where the line is? I dunno.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
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  3. Zeugma
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    Zeugma thugger thugger my brother

    Jul 24, 2019

    people disagreeing doesn't mean nobody's right though, one critic can be right and the other wrong
     
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  4. Michael Myers
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    Michael Myers Moderator

    Jul 24, 2019
    But who decides it ? U can say chronic is a s--- album and I can say its good. There is no guideline as to which of us is wrong
     
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  5. Zeugma
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    Zeugma thugger thugger my brother

    Jul 24, 2019
    once again, the fact that it's "hard" to determine who's right or wrong doesn't mean that "there is no such thing as right and wrong"
    if it was obvious in the first place, everybody would instantly agree and there would be no discussion
    this is what arguments are for! and this is why discussing music can be really interesting
     
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  6. Michael Myers
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    Michael Myers Moderator

    Jul 24, 2019
    I see what you mean but like I said music isn't science where things are set in stone.

    Depending how you look at it an album can be good or bad. A party album can be great for people that love to party and 'pop trash' to people that never leave their moms basement.

    I agree that its great to discuss especially because u get to see different perspectives as to why an album is good or not.

    But in the end I think respecting other peoples perspective at the end of a discussion means waaay more than being right or wrong.
     
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  7. Zeugma
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    Zeugma thugger thugger my brother

    Jul 24, 2019
    I get what you're saying and I partly agree. I've always been wary of that kind of relativism though. Who could say today that Van Gogh wasn't objectively an incredible painter? And you know the life he's had, how he was despised by friends and critics and died in poverty without getting any real recognition. there was ONE sole article written about him while he was alive, and it was great. that critic was right against everybody, and in my opinion humankind owe him big time
    what I mean is it's not just about hip-hop, music or even art: most interesting subject matters are incredibly hard to form a solid opinion on because "it's no science" as you said, but it's important that you still try to do so, basing yourself on the quality of argumentation, on moral values or whatever
     
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  8. Enez
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    Enez Purple Heats Forever

    Jul 24, 2019
    Sales aren't necessarily a factor into making someone GOAT worthy or an album classic worthy. I know quite a lot of best sellers that aren't worth being called good.

    If an artist has consistently made great music that keeps getting played by people from time to time, they're a GOAT, say someone like Pac, sure there might be a few mediocre albums after R U Still Down, but a majority of his s--- is great to a lot of people, and are still being played to this day. A classic album is somewhat in the same territory, except there are a few things worth talking about. Are the lyrics great? Is the production great? Is it well put together? I'd like to wait maybe a decade for an album to be a certified classic, until then, we'll see if it ages well enough.
     
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  9. Enez
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    Enez Purple Heats Forever

    Jul 24, 2019
    It doesn't necessarily need to sound great to be a classic either. Take Moment of Truth for example it didn't sound too good, even when it dropped, but it was well put together and Guru was just fantastic all around, and with Premo, just because it doesn't sound HQ doesn't mean it's bad.
     
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